110779-no-tokens-please
Page 1, Page 2 Content ---- ---- ---- Better idea; instead of tokens drop specific items that can be crafted into raid quality gear. Can't craft the gear with-out the drop- can't get the drop but in a raid. FFXI did a similar thing with HNM drops. If you wanted a scorpion harness you had to get the venemous claw from an NM scorpion... | |} ---- I suggested something like that in my Treatise. Crafters can make tier gear that is BOE and can't be worn. Soulbound tokens drop from bosses for certain kinds of gear. Get your token, you get crafted tier gear, and apply token to unequippable gear. Bam, you get soulbound tier gear. Keeps crafters involved, but you have to run the content and get the drop to wear the gear. | |} ---- Different system, roughly the same idea. Would be fine with me, but it looks like tokens is currently the plan. It's a good plan any way you slice it imo | |} ---- ---- Tokens aren't meant to be fun, they fix a lot of problems with loot all in one neat package. as long as the split tokens along good equally needy groups it will be a net gain. Wildstar itemization is one of the highest ranked *cupcake* ups in wildstars development; it i mindboggling that MMo devs could miss the mark on a core functionality that has sunk games far far better than wildstar hopes to be. See the problem here isnt the new blood in carbines ranks up setting your vision of what is good about the game. its that Wildstar is having a crash course in what the hell design actually works in 2014; things that have been tested and proven to please players. that said if you liked the way wildstar did look, go play Diablo 3 or one of the myriad of ARPGs where that sort of crap shoot loot system actually is desirable. | |} ---- ! crafting with raid drops almost always gets more messy than just dropping the loot directly and force the creations of all sort of extra items ie raid_sword_hilts and random_sword_ recipe) 2 have you tried to have some second party craft you gear for you, it is tedious as balls trying to dial in all the customization and screw up your craft | |} ---- ---- ---- I still do not want it to replace tokens. | |} ---- Sound's like freelance work. | |} ---- ---- ---- IMO, it's already a chore. | |} ---- That was my mention to. But... Carbine pls look at Rift and learn how perfectly rewarding works! | |} ---- ---- For some, I'm sure this is true. But for the rest of us, Knowing exactly what is going to happen, so I can plan my day, next steps and beyond is best. Both in and out of game. I don't start something without knowing exactly what I need to do and what I'll get for it at the end. If the answer is a maybe, then I won't do it. Some people count the days until Christmas. Some people count the bricks on a building, they need to know. Also, I hate surprises. ;) | |} ---- I heard about a system in FF14 (Apparently), where raiders could exchange the items they drop for points/coin from a vendor? This would be a good idea imo. Like a vending machine where you deposit your unwanted raid items and you get elder gems/gold/whatever in return. Make it even fun and have maybe a "try my luck" option where you could get something cool and random. | |} ---- ---- ---- Ahm... mhh... no... sounds wrong for me. I dont want to go WotW and only WotW over and over again for nothing. There is no thrill at the end. No love. Only sadness about not getting my sword. I take the tokens. Thanks. Games should reward players. If I get one token at the end I have something. Even if I need 100 for my sword its better than nothing. | |} ---- Current itemization didn't bug me a whole lot but then again I'm already raiding. Saying that there is more thrill to getting a good item from killing a boss is right though, and you can't argue with that. | |} ---- Thanks for bringing this up for a discussion, Lethality. I totally agree with what you said. They are following World of Warcraft path. While getting a token for a cloth gloves might be saving from frustration of getting a pair of gloves for a specific class and role that nobody needs anymore I find that kind of loot distribution very dull. I think getting the actual item you put on from an NPC gives much less excitement and joy, that was my experience from the day I got my first gloves token from Karazhan in The Burning Crusade. That was underwhelming compared to getting an actual ready-to-put on gear piece. I think they shouldn't have rushed this and rather worked for (perhaps several months?) on the tech that would minimize the chance of getting items nobody needs? The main the reason everyone disagrees with the Lethality is that they get useless gear after all the effort applied. Nobody likes that to a certain degree, yet in the latest Nexus Report Evan Graziano said that there is (not in WildStar but in general it exists) tech to minimize the chance to get useless drop, but it would take a lot of time to design it for WildStar. Now if only players would be patient enough to wait for that... P.S. I am speaking about minimizing the chance of getting useless drop, not completely removing the possibility to get useless items. The latter would be horrible and would make gearing up metagame wa-a-ay too short and easy. | |} ---- ---- Gambling isn't fun. Most sane people who go to Vegas hit the clubs, watch shows, eat a nice dinner, see the Hoover dam, things like that. You may toss a few bucks into a machine for giggles, but it isn't the purpose of the visit. | |} ---- This is exactly how it started out in Warcraft as well. The Tier 2.5 tokens in AQ. Which then led to a 9 year experiment of badges and tokens an points. And with Warlords of Draenor, Valor and Justice points are going away entirely. WildStar has a very unique itemization system and I think it has a lot of potential, it just needs a few tweaks -- not a complete overhaul. Going down the path of tokens and predictability is going down the path of tedium and predictability - it just becomes another invisible progress bar to fill up. All of the stats in WildStar do something beneficial for your character, keeping in mind every class has 2 roles. There is always going to be a "best" but that's where I think players are failing.... they're not willing to accept less than the best/preferred item (that's fine), but they're also not willing to put in the effort for it. Why not wear the item you have and rune it the best you can? If *really* desire a better version of it, then keep running the content until you get it. I wish players would embrace this idea... if Carbine could tweak the system so it's more likely that you have more chances to get the perfect piece, that's the answer. Not tokens. Don't underestimate the power of surprise; getting loot you really want when you least expect it. | |} ---- No... most people do exactly the opposite of that in Vegas :) Gambling IS fun. Players are unwilling to embrace change. They keep asking for it, but really what they want more of the same thing they've had for a decade. And now it appears WildStar is headed down that path of sameness. | |} ---- You don't speak for everyone, so no need to make such statements about what players want and don't want. I very much embrace this change and can't think of many that are actually raiding and clearing all if not majority of GA weekly would be opposed to this considering the changes on the items aren't retro active and the loot tables are too large. The entire problem of this game is that a lot of the raid drops get salvaged. Are you actually even raiding in this game? @Anlath, how i understood it there were tokens for class items not tokens in general to give you items, tier tokens, such as vanquisher chest that was shared among classes a la wow, not valor/heroic points. | |} ---- ---- I always thought they were fun. Different strokes for different folks- but I enjoy setting goals and working toward them. Probably the reason I don't mind dailies. I think they'd be a good fit for this game, because the content is challenging enough (well, vet dungeons I mean) that a fixed reward for success makes a lot of sense. It's not like you can compare running a vet dungeon to pulling a slot machine handle in terms of effort. | |} ---- I have to assume that when you say change you mean "all of the painful systems from the last two decades' worth of MMOs." Because that's the only thing I ever see you ask for. But hey, I hear Camelot Unchained is coming out soon. As a masochist, that may be more up your alley. | |} ---- Most people who gamble for fun don't put effort into it, though. I used to play a LOT of poker, which you can put a lot of effort into perfecting your game (unlike most other gambling games). To be honest, the "luck" factor of the game was always a frustrating point for those I knew who really worked hard to improve their play. But the luck factor was what kept the bad players around so you could profit off of them, so it was a necessary evil. The more effort you put into something, the less you want your rewards to be RNG. Wildstar is kind of a bad combination here, atm, though they are addressing it. | |} ---- No, I don't speak for everyone but this is a critical topic that needs discussion. It will take WildStar in a completely different direction. It deserves to have some debate, and I hope Carbine is up for it. There are other ways to approach change as I've suggested... in ways that preserve the unique itemization of WildStar while balancing the effort needed to get the desired reward. As I've stated, this is not as big of a problem with the game as it is with the players. Unhappy that they can't get the precise item they want, yet unwilling to put in the effort in the current structure. Yes, it's a little punishing right now, but with tweaks to the loot tables and drop rates, I think the current system would work fine - and encourage what Carbine wanted all along with the design of this system - a desire by players to keep running the content to get what they want. | |} ---- Gambling in Vegas is mindless, there's no skill involved, it's all pure luck. Fun for some, fine if that's what floats your boat. But what if those players were asked to solve a long logic puzzle before pulling the lever, or asked to run an obstacle course, or any other hurdle you care to throw in front of them. Would they still be as happy to keep losing to the RNG gods? I doubt it, because once you introduce effort the dynamic changes. Tokens are a good back up system. They can co-exist alongside random loot and not ruin all the fun of surprise. But it means there's at least some guaranteed reward for effort put in which can either be distributed fairly (if a guild group) or rolled for (if a PUG). There's a reason this "path of sameness" exists - it's because successive MMOs have realised this is what the majority of their players prefer. It's not about copying WoW - actually WoW tends to follow market trends rather than innovate. And it doesn't have to be exactly the same as WoW, Carbine can put their own twist on it. But a token system is fairer, less likely to cause frustration, resentment and disappointment. Happy players are happy subscribers. | |} ---- ---- Let's go with something that works or experiment with other methods for the sake of principle, i would pick the first why you will pick the latter. Complexity for the sake of it is bad game design, annoying reward systems for the sake of it is bad game design. Every game design choice needs a logical explanation, you are arguing based on principle nothing more based on novelties. We don't need to adjust this system we tried this loot system and it didn't work out as intended. Now let's start using that does work. Bosses that have 77 items on a loot table is not normal by any standards of mmo's past or present, casual, hardcore or otherwise. Again are you even raiding since you're giving feedback on this? Also the way i understood this was tokens for class items, to shrink the drop lists. Not tokens that will offer loot in addition to EG's. I'm fairly certain they wouldn't introduce such a double system. If you ever raided in WoW or Rift you will understand what i mean by class tokens. | |} ---- ---- ---- Token gear is in a way, a consolation price in case you got nothing from the "lottery". I'd rather feel like I got something out of a run other than fun times and giggles (not many of those after the 100th time you run) | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I agree. I wholeheartedly prefer the feeling of finally getting the piece of gear you want, the one that brings meaning and completion to your gearset. But between that feeling and "Crap, I just got squat again", I'd rather get something out of the run. Then again, limited playtime and all that jazz. | |} ---- ---- Admittedly my focus was different back then. Every summer I'd take a full PC rig to set up on the balcony of my shorehouse to keep up with the raiding schedule, and I was only at the shore for a week. However, I did get to jump off said balcony into the pool for each for each server first kill. On vent: "Grom.. wft where's Grommet?" "I think he jumped again" | |} ---- What exactly do you mean by itemization? The random rune types you get on your gear? Thats going to stay the same even with tokens, right? | |} ---- ---- You can have both. You can either get the drop you want or get a token. I see no reason why the two systems can't coexist. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- real talk, no MMO is out to reward your effort, if the reward your time they can guarantee you butt is in game to keep the metrics up. everything you think is effort is just a time gate wearing a pretty mask. OR do you see a lot of Named mobs with Single item loot tables that can only be defeated with a 300 key combo, described in an i game riddle/quest? | |} ---- ---- Every bolded element I added sounds like TOKENS to trade for CLASS PIECES. No need to get snarky, friend, but it sounds every bit as a token system a la WoW, considering he mentioned the word Token and it is a Loot System. I still think it's not a bad idea, though. You can call it Super Amazing Magical Source of unRNG Loot, if you'd like. Also, this : http://wowpedia.org/Armor_token | |} ---- Quoting this because my same post saying the same thing about this obviously didn't get read two pages ago. :P Also the quote there seems to suggest it will be armor based, not class based. So instead of DPS Esper Gloves of win Heal Esper Gloves of win DPS Spellslinger gloves of win Heal Spellslinger gloves of win 4 items on the loot table. You have one item: Light Armor Gloves of win 1 item on the loot table. I can't see any reason why this isn't positive. I don't think there's anything worse than raid boss dies, oh its healing paladin plate again, we have no holy pally so that class of loot is wasted. | |} ---- Majority here is arguing against a system like valor points. Including the OP. Things being hardcore for the sake of it is pointless, loot drops of that size on each boss is pointless. Majority of our loot being salvaged every raid due to them being either not an upgrade or having that many rolls in that your class part will never drop pointless. The class tokens in WoW didn't make it less "hardcore" it made it less tedious and better manageable with a greater sense of being rewarded for your efforts. It also didn't made it less RNG as it still took me forever to get my enhancement shaman fully maxed on in T10 loot due to the rarity of the tokens, there's a 1 in 3 chance to get something you need instead of a 1 in 6. It halves the RNG but doesn't remove it. | |} ---- Since I agree with the entirety of your reply, I present you with +1 Internets. | |} ---- ---- ---- FYI, I was talking in a broader gaming sense rather than specific to WildStar. I know Evan was discussing more of class/armour type specific shenanigans. :) I was just saying, in the grand scheme of things I just don't have the luck or playtime to run dungeons in the hope of a nice drop. Edit: Removing this as it's clear people are getting the wrong end of what folks are discussing and I'm probably not helping! I think Kalrell sums it up nicely; | |} ---- I'm the one who asked that question on twitch, and the answer was exactly what I was looking for...and is exactly what it means. This is something I have been talking to others about and was sincerely hoping they were doing this. In no way is this a negative change for anyone. | |} ---- ---- ---- And the Elder Point system proves this theory 100%. People will do things over and over again for those elder points. Bring on the tokens so that people have a reason to do dungeons. | |} ---- ---- ---- Problem is, no one is using EG to buy the gear, because there are other upgrades with a higher priority over Loot. They have decor items as well, and I know very few people who used EG to buy those. | |} ---- Yes, because people are using it to buy AMP and Skill points like I said. Now that it is going to be easier to get those, it opens up elder gems for gear. | |} ---- ---- ---- Lets do a little exercise: completely forget that WoW ever existed, and look at WS in the vacuum of its own design choices, and whether or not it's good the games health. All this moaning and comparing to WoW... it's like sitting down to watch TV and yelling SIMPSONS DID IT every 5min. | |} ---- You should look at the new tier of research gear out on the PTR, Archivos. All of it needs raid drops to craft, and for weaponsmith you can craft purples (possibly the others also, but weaponsmith and technologists are the only ones I've taken time to hit expert with on the PTR). Elder Gem gear was designed to be less powerful than the dropped gear, so no. | |} ---- ---- It's probably my first complaint or comparison to WoW, as far as wildstar goes and hardly a "simpson's did it" mentality. But yes, I would rather them create systems within their own design. | |} ---- ---- Thats no true at all. You get 7 dungeon charges. You can do all 7 dungeons on saturday and get all your tokens. Every day you get a new charge up to 7. So you can play every day one dungeon or one day 7 dungeons. And Rift have many ways to obtain tokens beside dungeons. Worldbosses, raids, chronicles (something like shiphands) with hardmodes for extra tokens, loot chests as worlddrops (boe)... To get all tokens that are possible you need alot of time. And beside dungeon tokens there are several other ways to improve your equip. Raid Rifts, strongholds, zone events... all of them rewarding for everyone. Even hardcore raider. You have to limit the tokens / day. If you dont do that people look for the best way to farm tokens and do that over and over again till burnout. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- If we were talking about a studio capable of introducing new systems without obliterating their code, I'd agree on something a bit more original. But at this point, every new addition to the core game, makes me cringe with a feeling of "Ehhh, what will be broken because of this?" | |} ---- ---- I think you are still thinking of the wrong type of tokens. You aren't getting so many tokens per boss, and trading them in for the piece of gear you want. You are getting a Light Armor Glove token, or a Heavy Armor Chest token, and then trading that in for an item in that slot of that armor type. It also is only for the class bound items, there should still be a lot of non set items that will make loot drops interesting. | |} ---- ---- Why do +1800 rated pvp players continue to PVP (or whatever the max rating is to buy all the pvp gear)? They got their rewards in a non-random way. I don't think randomness is needed to keep people playing. | |} ---- I actually agree with you. Instead of introducing a potentially damaging system (bugwise), how about using what you have? | |} ---- ---- They removed the static rune slots from PvP gear on the 7th. He wants to do both. A token system to simplify loot tables (Light Armor Glove token instead of Assaul Esper gloves, Support Esper gloves, Assault Spellslinger gloves, and Support Spellslinger gloves), and adding full sets to the Elder Gem vendor so that people have something to buy when their luck is sour. However, the Elder Gem gear was always intended to be weaker than what was dropped, and I don't recall anything from the interview about that design changing. Edited August 27, 2014 by dinwitt | |} ---- If salvaging gear gave a 100% chance for a token "fragment", then you could keep the RNG while having a deterministic system underlying it. Lucky players would get their piece of gear. Unlucky players would still get their gear after x number of junk gear salvages, regardless of what actually drops. The boss would never even have to directly drop whole tokens either. So it would work like this: Best case scenario - Boss drops 3 good items, all 3 items are useful and go to happy players. Net effect: 3 happy players Worst case scenario - Boss drops 3 garbage items, all 3 items go to one player, he salvages them all and combines the token fragments to form a token he can trade for something he needs. Net effect: 1 happy player Currently the worst case scenario is 0 happy players (all garbage drops), so at least this would bump it up to 1. | |} ---- ---- Strictly speaking, I'm not sure the Diablo/etc loot system is actually the best thing for an MMO (entirely randomized stats/drops), but if one were to keep it in an MMO, I do think this would be a reasonable improvement. The main issue with transferring the loot system over to an MMO is that the ratio of effort put in for reward is highly skewed in the opposite direction of what it would be in a Diablo-type system. So having a boss drop its entire table (or at least a huge chunk) would definitely help the crushing feeling of "my effort isn't getting me any meaningful progress ever". | |} ---- No, I understand the system he's talking about... but I am conflating the discussion because I feel its a stepping stone to the next. I want to have that discussion before any real decisions about this are made. | |} ---- I guess I just don't see one inevitably leading to the other, and I feel like it would be more productive to have a discussion about the merits and pitfalls of what was proposed instead of what might follow after it. | |} ---- You are thinking currency (which we already have in the form of elder gems), tokens are still going to be specific armor pieces. Tokens are a necessity with the way they set up their stats between classes. Only tank warrior and engineers share the exact same armor pieces, with stats that work the same (want more Support Power get more Tech, etc.), Stalker tanks work the same way, but share their armor with Medics, which causes medium armor to be broken up into 4 different types (stalker tank/dps, medic healing/dps). Instead of the boss dropping a Stalker Tank Shoulder, the drop will be a Medium armor shoulder token that can be turned into a vendor for any one of the 4 different pieces. Edit: Now realize you are expanding the discussion. We already have Elder Gems that have this purpose. Elder Gems were always the back-up to RNG. The problem is that they botched the AMP/Ability point implementation which removed them from being the back-stop, and they became the primary source. Once you have your ability/amp points Elder Gems will serve their intial purpose of filling out gear and cosmetic items. Edited August 27, 2014 by Bnol | |} ---- Yes, and that's really why I started the original topic and provided some alternative solutions to it, with the desire for discussion and feedback. But what's next is next, and by nature it's part of the same discussion. This isn't my first rodeo :) | |} ---- SWTOR is still chugging along with its token system for set pieces. The thing that makes SWTOR loot boring is that all the offset pieces are intentionally and obviously inferior to the set ones, which can be blamed on the item modification system, and isn't necessarily a problem Wildstar will have. Edited August 27, 2014 by dinwitt | |} ---- ---- ---- I wish there was an Internet or Loot Addons. Those 2 could really help with that. Too bad they don't exist.... | |} ---- Frankly I prefer presents, but my fam (I love them dearly) are hopeless when it comes to buying the things I want. (Seriously, stainless steel kitchen knives when I told you specifically NOT stainless?). Avoidable frustration is not fun. Under the current system the chance of nobody getting something useful is too high. | |} ---- To be fair, a lot of people find gift cards fun - not the cards themselves, but going out and buying what they want with them. | |} ---- ---- I think it would be enlightening if you went into more detail about what you think WIldstar would lose by consolidating loot drops into armor precursors, or at least what you think the negative impact is. Its not like trading in a token for a piece of gear has no precedent in the game (i.e. Weather Eldan Gauntlet). And as far as I can tell, issues with not being able to equip the drop immediately aren't valid because you already can't immediately use the drop you get, thanks to the runes. Objections based on not immediately receiving the loot can be assuaged by having the token be a quest item with a communicator turn in, so that you can get your item shortly after receiving the drop. That basically leaves not being able to see the stat difference when rolling and needing foreknowledge of the class gear to determine if it is an upgrade. On one hand, it is something that they could address with sufficient information on the token. On the other hand, it doesn't feel like a major issue, as people who have done the research and put in the work to get their toons to raiding status are often invested enough in progression to research what drops to expect. | |} ---- Wasting the opportunity to bring crafting into the end-game gameplay. Wasting the opportunity to induce player-player interaction, while adding player-NPC interaction. Demonstration of the readiness to blindly copy gameplay systems making the game less unique, instead of taking time and improving upon them. Demonstration of the design direction of making the game more convenient not in a clever and engaging way, but through simplification. | |} ---- ---- These seem to be more about missed opportunities and not things Wildstar is losing by going with this system. And the first one, about crafting, is only true if you ignore the tier 5 research schematics and crafting material being added to GA in drop 3. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Blindly copying is a baseless accusation as he clearly had some requirements he wanted to meet (leaner loot tables, less wasted drops, etc.) and a token system fulfills them. From a systems perspective, this is absolutely a high quality change. That it has been done before is hardly a valid criticism, since that is true of everything. Yes, there are more creative, more interesting, and ultimately more confusing systems out there, and I do think it would be good to explore those for future content. But for a quick, incremental improvement that doesn't add a lot of complexity to an existing system it is hard to beat tokens. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- It's still less fun getting a token and then having to go to a freaking vendor to pick up your item. You cannot equip it right then. It's not fun. | |} ---- Literally the post right above yours explains what they mean by token. It isn't "collect 30 tokens to exchange for gloves." It's "this boss drops a single token that you can turn in for light armor gloves." | |} ---- Not fun: -Gear that nobody can use. -Gear thats can be equipped but is trash because it's for a different class/spec. -Taking forever to get any gear because of ^ Fun: -Downing a boss, having a light armor token drop, meaning you can selectively build either a DPS or support set with little pain. -Gearing at a more reliable rate because the RNG pool is cut down. Sure it feels dandy to equip something right away, but it's nowhere near worth the shitty tradeoff. If anything it's a little childish to sit and pout because the shiny loot requires heading back to thyad to get it. HARDCORE | |} ---- Except that when someone buys you a present they put some thought into it and hopefully get you something they at least think you'll like. Wildstar is more like a secret santa. Chances are very good that what you get you dont' want and/or can't use. I'll take gift cards, thanks. | |} ---- the post right above your describes why tokens are are far less inspiring. | |} ---- Except it's even less fun to get junk you can't use. What good is equipping it right then if it's totally wrong for your build, unusable by your class, worse than what you already have, or whatever? | |} ---- I understand your concern, I personally am one voting for the token system... After running Wotw 45 times and only seeing my tanking claws drop once (which were stollen by the dps stalker) it got very frusterating. I think that there should be gold tokens, silver, and bronze... so the best item requires gold tokens to buy. | |} ---- That is a player-imposed sanction. In WildStar, stats behave differently depending on the class… all of them are useful in some way to everyone, none of them wasteful. But the problem is a DPS Stalker isn't happy with getting an item where he will gain some survivability, for example, because it doesn't let them do more damage. Or does it? Players have locked in their minds that WildStar is a stat-race and it's simply not. Your skill is more important, and in this case survivability is nothing to sneeze at because of it. That's just an example. The idea is that players could go back to try and get a more desirable version of that item, which I think is a brilliant design. It just isn't that well balanced vs. effort to acquire. I think there's a much better way to do that than a token. | |} ---- ---- I hear ya, there are definitely some kicks to the nads in this system. But I'd rather see it be solved another way than tokens you report to a vendor to cash in. I like the idea of shrinking the boss loot tables immensely, but having them drop the entire table every time. That way you know for sure you're going to see the item you want, and hopefully it will get the roll you are hoping for. If not, you can be assured you have another shot next time. As opposed to now where you may not even see it drop, etc. | |} ---- Giving most of our loot to OS while people from certain classes have gotten 1 item over 40 raids = fun? Again do you even raid or are you just arguing principles here? | |} ----